Kevin chats with Herb Freed—author, director, producer—about his life and career, as well as his new book, Love, Faith and a Pair of Pants.





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Kevin Tumlinson:          00:01                Hey slingers welcome back to another week of the Wordslinger Podcast. And I'm real happy you're here. We're going to be chatting with, uh, I'm going to say he's a new good friend of mine. We're going to be talking to Herb Freed, so stick around. You're not gonna want to miss this fantastic interview. See you next.

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Announcer:                   00:50                It's the Wordslinger Podcast, where story matters. Build your brand. Write your book. Redefine who you are. It's all about the story here. What's yours? Now, here's the guy who invented pants, optional—Kevin Tumlinson, the Wordslinger!

Kevin Tumlinson:          01:15                Well, I am Kevin Tumlinson, the Wordslinger. Man, I'm glad you're here. Uh, if you weren't here, I'd be sitting here talking to myself, which I frankly, I think I do anyway. I sometimes wonder, cause you know, in the early days of this show now, we just had, by the way, uh, our sixth, uh, anniversary for the show, six years we've been doing the Wordslinger podcast. Uh, things have, uh, more or less stayed on the same, uh, tr track I think. I mean more or less we've been on the same path, but you know, there've been some format changes and that sort of thing. Um, but if you didn't get a chance to listen to that, go back to last week's episode number one 97, and, uh, take a listen to that. Uh, talked about a few things I learned. Uh, some philosophies I've picked up along the way and just sort of what I feel the importance of the show has been, uh, at least in my life and hopefully in your life too.

Kevin Tumlinson:          02:08                But, um, that said, I mean, here, here we are on another week. I think the point I was trying to make was back in the day I knew I didn't have an audience for a long while. Uh, and I still sat down, got my energy up and did the work. Um, not always easy with this show. I'm going to be honest with you. Not always easy. I, it's funny because I dread it sometimes right up until this moment when I'm actually sitting in front of a microphone and a recording. Um, it's, it's unreal what taking action will do for you as a creative there in lies lesson. You should always work past the dread, feel the dread and do it anyway. To paraphrase the aphorism, feel the fear and do it anyway. Feel the anxiety and do it anyway. I read a recently an article in, um, psychology today I believe.

Kevin Tumlinson:          03:08                Um, I've actually encountered this idea before I actually had this notion and then went searching for materials to see if anyone was looking into it and turns out they were, and it's this idea that anxiety and a fear are the same, a chemical biological response as excitement. So if you could just change your perspective and decide that what I'm feeling is not anxiety but is instead excitement, it changes everything about what you do next. Um, and a big part of that big part of that is feeling the fear and doing it anyway. So feel the fear, acknowledge that it is fear and say to yourself, I feel excited. Convince yourself that that feeling is excitement. Move your body, position your body, you know, hold your body in a way that says you're excited and then take action. And you won't believe how quickly that anxiety and fear just turns into enthusiasm and an excitement.

Kevin Tumlinson:          04:14                So anyway, that was not, that's not the point of the episode. This is not a solo slinger episode. So I'm not going to kind of expound on that for the next a half hour. Excuse me, because I want you to hear this amazing interview with my new friend, uh, her breed who is, uh, quite possibly one of the gentlest souls I've, I've talked to in quite some time. Um, I'm just, I'm, I'm just honored to have had the opportunity to, uh, to speak with him on this episode and I, I think you'll get a lot out of this conversation, so I'm not gonna hold back any longer. Uh, I feel excited. I hope you feel excited to see what I did there. And, uh, this is my new friend, herb freed. Let's, uh, let's all pay rapt attention and see what we can learn and stick around the other side.

Kevin Tumlinson:          05:05                I'll, uh, I'll wrap this up with I hope, something interesting, so I'll see you there.

Kevin Tumlinson:          05:13                Hey everybody. Uh, now, um, I love talking to folks like my, my next guest because he's got this very, um, we're going to call it an eclectic history, uh, and background, uh, all the way from a ordained rabbi to, uh, producing and directing, uh, films and TV and all kinds of crazy stuff. You've got books going on. Uh, I am talking to, uh, herb Breen. I'm sorry, her fried, I'm sorry. I stumbled over your name there for a second. I caught something else out of the corner of my eye, herb freed. Uh, and I am very happy to have you on the show. Sir. Thank you for being on.

Herb Freed:                  05:49                Well, thank you for having me on this. My, my great, very great pleasure. Uh, and uh, and you're right, I just, uh, I guess I'm a guy who's not easily satisfied. So I been through a few different, uh, occupations in my life, but I don't think they're so different. You know, when I started, I was a rabbi for only three years, but I used study and the rabbit and when you prepare for the rabbit that you, you learn to tell stories because you know, the, the, some of them, one of the great Christian theologians said that that the entire own religion is story. Yeah. Uh, and uh, and so that in fact it is. And then, you know, I spent about 35 years making feature films and that's the stories. And uh, and now I'm writing books, which are stories and, and that gives me a, as a content and a continuation of what I, what I really love to do in life.

Kevin Tumlinson:          06:43                So your, your passion. Yeah, I can see that you're, you definitely comes through in your history that storytelling is your path. You know, you and I are similar in that I actually went through seminary, um, early on in my career and then went to film and TV and now I write books. So we're just leading slightly ask you parallel lives or

Herb Freed:                  07:05                it's my pleasure to be alongside you.

Kevin Tumlinson:          07:10                I'm sorry, go ahead.

Herb Freed:                  07:12                No, I was just saying in Texas, Texas speech. I guess I'd be your sidekick.

Kevin Tumlinson:          07:16                Yeah, we, we'd be a, we'd be in each other's policy.

Herb Freed:                  07:19                Okay.

Kevin Tumlinson:          07:23                What, uh, what prompted the move from rabbi to, to producer? I mean, what, what made you decide to do that?

Herb Freed:                  07:30                Oh, well, it was actually one form of storytelling to another, but the life in the, in the rabbit, in a clergy general, uh, in general was, uh, it, it took a lot out out of me. You're in life cycle of everyone in your community and every congregation while you're there for the joy and you're there for the burial and the death and the pain. And to be perfectly honest at, uh, as a young man, I just, I, I just didn't, couldn't, yeah. I couldn't take it. It was a two too hard for me emotionally. And, and though it gave me some pleasure, the one thing it didn't do is make me laugh. Yeah. And, uh, and I love to laugh and I find, uh, that when I, when I'm writing, uh, and I only started about seven years ago, uh, when I'm writing, I find myself laughing, crying, and then if I feel like I call my mother, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it's connection to, to, to everything in life that means something to you, especially when you can write novels and you can just go wherever your mind takes you, where your heart takes you. And that's a great pleasure for me.

Kevin Tumlinson:          08:42                Now you, uh, you, you, you connected the two ideas that [inaudible] producing films and writing novels were both storytelling and that's a given. We can connect them there. What, uh, what are some of the ways that these two things are sort of similar to you?

Herb Freed:                  09:00                Um, well, I, you know, the, there's similar, uh, in some ways, in some ways they're not. I find one of the, one of the great pleasures of writing is not having to deal with 40 people who are determining how much money I should spend or not spend to make a a fill. Or when I, when I write a screenplay and I know precisely the actor I work and I go before them and they say, you know, uh, they don't know him in uh, Scotland or God knows where. Uh, and so you, everything is a compromise. So I've made some films that I'm quite proud of. Uh, as a matter of fact that tomorrow morning they're rereleasing one of my early films, um, uh, not one of my favorites to be sure that titled but are really interesting of a film with John Sachsen and some really good actors.

Herb Freed:                  09:52                And that was called beyond evil. And that's coming out again. So my is a keep coming out, keep coming back. And that's a pleasure. That's a joy. I'm glad to see it. Although I must admit that none of them are, am I, am I able to say this is a work from my heart entirely? It's gotta, it's gotta be a compromise. On the other hand, when I write, I write until, until I literally, you know, laugh, cry, I'm calling my mother. Well, something we just have to, has to please me and be in that part of my life where, where, you know, where, where I find comfort and where I find knowledge and where is where I, where I feel like I'm part of the, the human human situation. Yeah. The writing is, yeah. I mean, I definitely

Kevin Tumlinson:          10:44                felt so, you know, I tried to transitioned from film and TV to, to writing novels. I'd been writing my whole life though, so I cheated. Um, but

Herb Freed:                  10:53                that, that I did like the company. How do you mean that, how did you cheat? I cheated because I, uh, I make it sound like

Kevin Tumlinson:          11:02                moved from one career to the other, but really I just did other things while I wrote.

Herb Freed:                  11:07                I do think that's what life is. I really do. And, and, and we're, we're the lucky ones. I mean, I find getting up in the morning, uh, and it also helps be over, um, I don't know how it was with you, but the events in my life, uh, that, uh, that are, you know, very shaken or very dramatic, uh, I, I'm able to respond to those by writing words, by writing, uh, by communicating to other people. Uh, and then when I get the reviews and, and uh, you know, and sometimes they're just bowled me over. Um, I'm just looking at one that a woman wrote when they, when my love face and a pair of pants came out, her review was, I know what this is, catcher in the rye with a Yiddish accent.

Kevin Tumlinson:          11:55                Huh.

Herb Freed:                  11:57                And you know, you're just sort of a, I'm not communicating with all these people. You must the faults that yourself so too.

Kevin Tumlinson:          12:04                Oh yeah, you're right. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, it's, I love, um, I love when people connect that way. Like they, they, they sort of have their own Aha moment that your book reminds them of some other work that you maybe had no intention of.

Herb Freed:                  12:21                I did not think about the catcher in the Rye when I wrote that book.

Kevin Tumlinson:          12:26                Well, since you brought it up. Well, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Herb Freed:                  12:29                No, it's just that, uh, I have no idea, you know, were where it was going to come from. I started to write, you know, and then, uh, I had enough pages and the publishers had those, get it out for transit. Stop. Stop changing stuff. Get it out. Let's sell some books.

Kevin Tumlinson:          12:47                Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I, I live, uh, there's sort of a, I don't know if you'd call this a subtitle or just a description. I don't know. But you say it's a novel in stories. What does that mean exactly?

Herb Freed:                  13:00                Uh, well, uh, it's, it's, it, the book has five chapters, five stories, and as follows, one, one character we see, we start with, he's a rabbinical student of all things. Uh, and, uh, and as a rabbinical student, he has intellectual interests and social interests. Uh, a helix poetry, but he's a young man and he also loves women.

Kevin Tumlinson:          13:28                Oh, wow.

Herb Freed:                  13:29                Oh, come on. So, uh, you know, going back and into that was there was really a lovely story. And so we start with him, uh, as a rabbinical student, and then we go through aspects of his life. When we covered, we go through 30 years of the same character. Right, right. No, and all the events that occur and that and that fashion is life. And, uh, I found the, so far of the things that I've done and I've written, that's the one that I'm most proud of. And, uh, and I've gotten the most response to. Uh, I look some of the earlier ones too. I mean, I love sheriffs, which was another, an earlier book, but it's very different kind of story. It's much more, much more solid life as opposed to a light. There's nothing light about it.

Kevin Tumlinson:          14:20                Now, are your books somewhat autobiographical or completely made up?

Herb Freed:                  14:27                You know, my, my wife a blessing memory. It was a brilliant writer. She was a film editor too. We worked together. Her name is Marian Segal. And she, uh, she used to say, you know, the thing about, uh, writings, if you write fiction or you know, uh, I mean, what exactly is it? And uh, what she said was all biography is fiction and all fiction in his biography. So you can only really write, I believe what you know, I mean there are people who can write about, you know, life on, on the planet, but you know, I'm not one of those, I don't know. I'm not familiar with your writing and you write the from your phone from you.

Kevin Tumlinson:          15:11                Yeah, I mean I write, I write archeological thrillers, so like Indiana Jones type stuff. So definitely my life that's definitely based on my life, uh, swinging into adventure. And

Herb Freed:                  15:24                I think that's wonderful. Well, you know, the, I find the same thing and my characters are, you know, sound different than they, they talk different. And some do have that one writer called the, the intersection or what the editor called the Intersex. And that happens occasionally, but there are other accents too. And there are other aspects of the writer in me as I see them. And I find that I just find that so much fun to be able to call up and then I can rewrite aspects of my life [inaudible] to say what would have happened had I done that. And uh, and then I explore that. I find it very self fulfilling now. Like I can't imagine anybody not wanting to write. I know it's kind of tough to get into, you know, sitting down and uh, and just, you know, making, putting words to paper. I don't know. I don't know how old you were when you started, how early in your life you started, but, uh, you know, did you find that too that you sitting down and, you know, just making sure you put up the words.

Kevin Tumlinson:          16:29                Yeah, I was very, very young, like, you know, five years old when I started, you know, writing, telling stories and writing them down. And uh,

Herb Freed:                  16:38                there is,

Kevin Tumlinson:          16:38                oh, I am very serious. Yeah. I, this is, and that's the thing. I think a lot of, a lot of people who do this feel the way you do. Like they can't imagine people wouldn't want to sit and write and tell stories. But I don't think everyone does feel that way. I think that we writers think everyone feels that way.

Herb Freed:                  16:56                Oh, well, you know, the thing is that I, what I find is I've always loved to hear stories and when I was, you know, anywhere from three years old, I grew up, my family was a first generation American and my grandmother was born in Russia and never really learned to speak much English, which was very funny. I lived in Ohio, in Youngstown and the neighbors were all the same that came from, but they came from Russia. They came from Italy that came from many different places. And the older women never learned English, but they would sit on the, on the glider, on the porch, uh, and they would sit there in the summer and they would talk to each other. How they communicate, I have no idea. But they were able to tell stories, you know, without, without a language. And my grandmother, well, when I was at as early as, you know, three or four, she would say, you must hear this story. She'd be reading this story, the English newspaper. Yeah. You hear about this terrible, tragic narrative where the man was so mean to his wife and she acts out all the roles. And I listened to listen, my God, how terrifying. And it just grabbed me and I had to hear all these stories. I love those stories. No worries. I guess they're what kept me going. I don't know how, but if you started at five, my God,

Kevin Tumlinson:          18:14                but it was the same thing. You know, I heard a everyone around me and my whole life, it was all about stories. And I was very involved in our church when I was young and the o r our minister was always telling stories. And I think it just sort of, I don't know, it just became my language. Yeah. So you, uh, so where are you w you know, you've gone, you've got a whole lifetime of inspiration to draw on. I know I'm, where do you find the most inspiration for your work?

Herb Freed:                  18:47                Well, uh, I, you know, I've, I made 15 seats for films, so I made one of them, uh, and south of France, Italy, Spain, uh, one in Israel. Uh, and I just traveled a lot and especially with, with my wife Nerian and we had the most unbelievable times. So I mean, we, we had stories where we'd go into a bar at night, uh, or club and they play some school and particularly in Spain, and they would play some phenomenal flamenco. And, uh, I would go over to one of the guys and I say, you know, I'd love to hear some more of you guys, but how about a little private thing. So we would spend, they would take us to some God knows where, uh, with two other guitarists and it would start playing all kinds of music and they would tell us stories about, no, the Catalan and you know, and I, all these things sort of made a, made a major impact on my life.

Herb Freed:                  19:47                So I saw all these different kinds of things and the different people. And the way they bow, you know, just when they, they, they, they, they cut your ears off. But when they look at you, they smile and bile and you, you know, so you've got to use these in characters. And I find, I find my, you know, the things, the personal adventure is very, very relevant. But in, in my case, uh, you know, when I did movies that was, you know, just, it was a different kind of a story. Now, uh, now it comes from the heart. And the reality is I didn't start until seven years ago. Uh, and that was when my wife passed away. And what happened was I just, I couldn't find myself interested in anything. I had no interest in making any more films that was done. I've done that.

Herb Freed:                  20:34                Uh, and so I, I just began to sit down and let's start to write. I started writing letters to her and I began to think about events that we had together, things that she said and how I felt about it. And then if I said, if I can capture what I feel, what I'm feeling now as I think about it, let me sit down and write a page. And I did, I started to write. And I find now that I, every morning I get up at, uh, well I will say to get up early, but I'm at the computer at 10. I'm a late sleeper.

Kevin Tumlinson:          21:07                That's, that's, that's an early La Day.

Herb Freed:                  21:10                Oh, I love this. Another La Day. Hey, you know, you can call me at a quarter to midnight and I'll, I'll be happy to.

Kevin Tumlinson:          21:16                Right.

Herb Freed:                  21:19                And, uh, cause I also love to read too, and I guess a little bit we all do. And, uh, and that's kind of where I, where you get the richness, but I find you really have to know about what touches your heart.

Kevin Tumlinson:          21:31                Yeah.

Herb Freed:                  21:32                Uh, and what makes us laugh and what makes it cry, I thought just named, but, uh, I think, I think it's true of many people.

Kevin Tumlinson:          21:39                Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's, I, that's one of the things I think I love about writing, no matter what type of writing it is. Uh, when I wrote for TV, I did mostly documentary stuff. So my experience is very different from yours. Uh, but I, you know, there was, you have to kind of find that place inside yourself, uh, that, that sort of loves the material and loves, loves telling the story and then, you know, marries those two ideas together.

Herb Freed:                  22:08                Well, yeah, I understand perfectly. How long have you been, you've been writing a long time now.

Kevin Tumlinson:          22:13                Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I know. I've written my whole life. I ever written professionally since very young, like 12 years old, but I didn't start writing books, novels until a, in my, you know, like thirties. So that got ahead of me.

Herb Freed:                  22:27                Your novels are primarily, uh, action? Uh, stories.

Kevin Tumlinson:          22:32                Yeah. Yeah. Mostly. Yeah. Yeah. So I write some nonfiction stuff too, so

Herb Freed:                  22:38                I know that, cause I, you know, a bunch of my films are interaction pieces, which is why it, which is why I could no longer here, you know, takes a toll on the eardrum. And when you've got car crashes and explosions and you know, I think the worst one I ever did was an underwater scene and I can't even remember who was. Um, but, uh, oh, I know the guy at the big karate guy, I forget his name.

Kevin Tumlinson:          23:06                Bruce Lee. Pardon me? What was it? Bruce Lee?

Herb Freed:                  23:10                No, no, it's an American

Kevin Tumlinson:          23:11                American. Oh, okay. Uh, Chuck Norris.

Herb Freed:                  23:17                So, so there were, there, there were three neurosis. As a matter of fact, three brothers. One scene was underwater. Yeah. Just being underwater as much as I was, I, I got up, I kept shaking my head and I mean, it was, it takes a toll. So, you know, they're, they're there, I guess you'd have to call that, that would fit as sacrifice women.

Kevin Tumlinson:          23:39                Yeah. Sacrifice for your art. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Tumlinson:          23:46                If you have to go through some kind of traumatic experience at least once in order to call yourself a true artist.

Herb Freed:                  23:52                Well, I, uh, I think that's fair. And then, then, you know, the process is fascinating too, because you never, you know, you never know. I think that's the, that wonderful song. You never can tell. You never know what the, you know, what the public is going to feel about it. And, uh, and then I also find, I don't know if you find this too, but I have a wonderful publicist and editor and she's, she's phenomenal actually. She came up with the title love face and a pair of pants and my next book would just coming out. She had another great title that won't come out until the end of the year, but that's called Grazia Sala veto.

Kevin Tumlinson:          24:37                Yeah. That's cool. That sounds great. Yeah.

Herb Freed:                  24:40                Yeah. So I remember she doesn't, and they, you know, I find that I, I mean, I'm so grateful for these people who really understand what's in my heart better than I do in many of them. I find that really, really helpful. I don't know if you've found that too, but

Kevin Tumlinson:          24:57                I have some amazing people in my, in my life that make my whole life possible. And I know exactly what you mean.

Herb Freed:                  25:06                No, no. We, we, we, we are, uh, we are, we are a nation of people. We are, uh, you know, I don't think we just can't get along. I think it was Aristotle said that initially you, that there is no such thing as living alone, but you say you were in the clergy too.

Kevin Tumlinson:          25:23                Yeah. Briefly. Yeah. Yeah. I went through a whole program and was ordained and did some things and you know, I decided it wasn't quite the right path for me. I'm still very spiritual, but, um, I didn't, uh, I didn't stick it out as a minister.

Herb Freed:                  25:42                That's definitely, you hit the right words, spiritual, because that's the, that's the one great carryover I think from the clergy. Uh, and uh, and, and I'm not embarrassed by it to the contrary. Um, my, my beliefs are strengthened. Some of the things I see in some of the events I see and by some of the cruelty and some of the grace that I see in, uh, in other people. And I think quite frankly, you know, in today's times it's really important to have something solid, you know, that you can, you can refer to.

Kevin Tumlinson:          26:17                Yeah, I agree. Yeah. It's, especially now, I mean it's, it seems we're, it's a very divisive time, you know, everybody seems like they're all set to be against each other.

Herb Freed:                  26:27                Yeah. Yeah. It's what we're, we're the blue blue, the blue team and the red team and, and, and the system doesn't seem to be any way to communicate. The only time I find that doesn't work is when you're as when you're either, yeah. Find this. I'm in a park for example, and someone folds down and they do, cause I do sit in the park lot, watch, watch the little kids on the swings, the parents and no matter who it is, if somebody needs help, they're all there. They're all, they all jump in, which is, which is really what, you know, America always meant to me. And one of the stories of above love face and a pair of pants. It's about the, the mother, the rabbis mother. Uh, and uh, her name is Bertha and she, uh, she grew up in, in Russia. And this is in the, in the, in the story.

Herb Freed:                  27:22                And a good part of the story is that, uh, she feels that the one thing that she must do in this life is to become a citizen of the United States of America. And the question is why? And she said, because in Russia, every spring in the villages, she grew up, there were no paved roads. So most of the water that fell from the tree that fell from the snow and melted just became, just became filth. You know, as they rolled down in her village, she said, they, the men would sit around, uh, pawns of filth. And when they see a stranger coming by, they would guide them in and throw them into the filthy water and keep them there. And everybody would laugh. And My mother said, in America, if somebody falls down, everybody reaches to pick them up and says, and that's what American means to her. And, uh, and so she was determined in that, in that story to become, to realize her greatest gift or greatest dream, which was to become a citizen of the United States of America. So that's, that's a good story to start with. Uh, if anybody's interested, it's called Bertha. Okay.

Kevin Tumlinson:          28:36                Can they get, so they can have the stories we read out of order is, is that the way they're set up?

Herb Freed:                  28:40                I, you know, one can, because it goes to, uh, follow the, the, the one main character when from the time he's in his twenties, you know, to where he's just [inaudible] he becomes 60. But uh, so that's where that is. But the actual essence of the story would work anywhere it goes. Okay. It's a totally different story.

Kevin Tumlinson:          29:05                You can just switch it all up and tell a nonlinear story to yourself if you want. So sort of choose your own, choose your own layout kind of thing. Yeah, I don't mind that. That's uh, that seems like a, that that would be kind of a fun way to approach a book. Uh, you know, their title, I gotta tell you I got, I have only a tiny issue with your title cause this, the Tagline of this show is that I'm the guy who invented pants optional, so did not know that. Well, I'm, I'm honored. I'm honored. Maybe,

Herb Freed:                  29:46                maybe my book should have a little tag, you know.

Kevin Tumlinson:          29:51                Okay, good.

Herb Freed:                  29:51                The, you know, just whatever you do, just remember a

Kevin Tumlinson:          29:57                Kevin Thompson, it'll all come out right there. So what's a, you say you got another book coming coming up soon?

Herb Freed:                  30:11                Yeah, we do. Uh, we do. I say we, because I've worked very closely with my publicist. I try not to work so hard with my editor, uh, because, uh, well because he's, she's difficult by difficult. I mean, she doesn't love everything. I do.

Kevin Tumlinson:          30:28                Yeah. Go like that.

Herb Freed:                  30:33                I know, but I think that's either heresy or a mutiny or a [inaudible], but then, and especially because she's, she's generally right. Yeah. But yeah. So, uh, so these are, these are stories that yeah, I'd love and up before they go to print, you know, I have to make sure that the people that I respect and whose, you know, whose tastes I share, uh, feel the same way.

Kevin Tumlinson:          31:02                Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's, that's great. I, I Womble I'm look forward to seeing the next one. Then. I got a copy of, uh, uh, love faith in a pair of pants. I have that. Um, and I haven't gotten it to start reading it yet cause it was everything. Uh, we, we can't, we kind of shifted things around. I didn't get to it. That's my fault. That's my fault.

Herb Freed:                  31:24                No, no, no, no, no. All we're paired belonged, it's my fault. Every time I see something technically that I don't not familiar with, I go into these spasms of fear, you know, what's going to happen if I pushed the wrong button. And so, uh, and uh, and because that is not something I'm very familiar with. Yeah. So I do apologize for that.

Kevin Tumlinson:          31:48                Oh No, you're absolutely fine.

Herb Freed:                  31:50                We, we worked, I mean, I, I've, I do some, uh, the t v is okay cause I just sit on a bench.

Kevin Tumlinson:          31:57                [inaudible]

Herb Freed:                  31:58                no, but, but, uh, whenever I have to do the, uh, you know, that, what the hell they call it with what I'm looking at my, my own TV.

Kevin Tumlinson:          32:06                Yeah. You know, I slip out of that every so often.

Herb Freed:                  32:18                So kind of at that, that's kind of strange for me because I look at myself and I'm onscreen and I'm out of sync.

Kevin Tumlinson:          32:25                Oh yeah,

Herb Freed:                  32:26                yeah. I find that a little, you know, a little, uh, uh,

Kevin Tumlinson:          32:30                disconcerting. I'm a writer, so, so it's, or you

Herb Freed:                  32:40                certainly are. And you're a wordsmith. Thank you.

Kevin Tumlinson:          32:43                Oh, no, thank you. Uh, I, uh, I, I can't tell you her. I am enjoying, I'm really enjoying this conversation, which you, which makes this next part because we're at the, yeah, we're kind of at the end of our time, so I'm gonna have to wrap us up. Uh, but how about we tell everybody the best place they could possibly find your, your current book and maybe that'll lead them to finding the next one when it comes out.

Herb Freed:                  33:10                Yeah. Well, by, by all means, you can go to, uh, Amazon, uh, or, uh, uh, or even a Google. And you'll look up herb free at h, e R, B, f, r, e, e, d, and you'll see, uh, some of my works and my, my, my books and where to write, where you can find them. Uh, and so, you know, that would be a good, a good place to begin. Uh, the one guy that most people seem to respond to, his love safe and a pair of paints. So that's that. That's the one, the private, the prior book is a very highly spiritual love story. Uh, I guess I call it transcendental love story and, uh, it's called bus shirt. That's a Yiddish word, which means, uh, meant to be the ideas that, you know, your soul mate. It's just how, how, how one goes about finding his full name, spelled a Bush Sherrick, B as in boy, a s as in Sam, a h e r t by shared for sure.

Kevin Tumlinson:          34:20                We're going to put links to everything in the show notes of the show so people will be able to find it.

Herb Freed:                  34:25                And then the new one is called the Grazia Fall Avida but that won't be coming out until December. So, so we have a little bit of time.

Kevin Tumlinson:          34:33                That sounds intriguing. I love the title has rhythm and I love rhythm. All right, well, uh, I appreciate you, uh, taking the time to chat with me. I know we had some bumps in the road, but it looks like it all worked out really well for the, for the both of us. I'm so glad you were here.

Herb Freed:                  34:52                Well, I'm just thrilled to do it and I, I'm serious about inviting you for a drink when you come there at lunch when you come to California. Oh, I love this interview is just so, I mean I was speaking to a kindred spirit.

Kevin Tumlinson:          35:07                Yeah. That's the way I feel too.

Herb Freed:                  35:09                There's nothing, nothing is better for me, so thank you so much.

Kevin Tumlinson:          35:13                Thank you. Uh, you stick around just a second and I'm going to say goodbye to the folks listening cause right now, uh, everybody

Kevin Tumlinson:          35:19                you are hearing the groupie fridge and Muse, you made dancing place. It will. And if you stick around, we'll have some words of wisdom for you after the interview. Uh, thank you again. Uh, herb. I'm so glad we had a chance to connect. Thank you. Hey, looking for a jump on your own indie author career, but kind of confused about where to start. I got the place for you. Check out draft two digital. That's where you're going to be able to convert your manuscript, distributed worldwide online and get help. The hallway from the best author support there is, trust me on this one. So go check out drafted slash word slinger. Hey, thanks for sticking

Kevin Tumlinson:          36:03                around after the, that a fantastic interview with her breed. I hope you enjoyed that. Um, every now and then I meet someone in this business then I just, I'm so happy I met, you know, herb is definitely one of those guys. Um, I'm going to take him up on his offer by the way, uh, to come swing by and visit him if I'm in La, uh, which could happen. I mean we're gonna be doing the whole RV thing here soon, uh, starting in, uh, April. So it could very well happen. Then I get a chance to meet herb in a in person. I hope I do. And, uh, he just seems like a, I don't know, I just, I love meeting people that even without seeing them, cause herb and I did this interview over the phone, which is a little different than most of the interviews I conduct.

Kevin Tumlinson:          36:51                But you could still, I could still see the light in her, if that makes any sense. I could still came through in the audio and I hope it did in the, uh, in this episode to, um, then is a, that is gonna wrap us up for, uh, this week on the word slinger podcast. I, I'm trying to keep these things kinda light for Ya, cause I the, you know, I no longer do the hour long episodes, uh, out of respect for your time. Uh, but I hope you got something beautiful and wonderful and inspiring from this episode. Now, this weekend, uh, I will be in Austin. I'm going to be hanging out with, uh, Aaron minky. Not really, not literally a, I'm going to be hanging out in his, in proximity to him as he does like a live, uh, presentation of Lore, uh, which if you haven't heard that podcast, uh, or seen the, uh, the Amazon prime television series, um, you should check those out.

Kevin Tumlinson:          37:48                This is fascinating stuff. Uh, but I'm going to be, uh, in, in the general area of him. He won't know I'm there more than likely, unless I get a chance to kind of greet, uh, with him later. But, uh, if you're in the Austin area, my wife and I are going to be hanging out. Uh, we're going to treat this kind of like a little mini vacation. Um, I'll still be doing some writing, but, uh, if you, uh, spot me in the wild, please say hello. I'd love to chat with Ya and I can introduce you to my, the backbone of my existence, my beautiful bride. Uh, Kara, I did not forget her name there. I just hesitated on whether or not I should say it. I don't know why I'd say her name all the time. I don't know, whatever crazy days. Um, anyway, thank you so much for being a part of the words on your podcast low these six years.

Kevin Tumlinson:          38:38                Um, and many more to come. It looks like. I mean, looking at the numbers, I got a 200th episode coming up. Um, maybe I should do something a little special. You tell me. Pop in at word slinger, Send me an email, tell me what you think I should do for the a 200th episode of words in your podcast. Uh, it's kind of interesting to hit two milestones at a, within like a couple of weeks of each other. So very excited about that. Um, tell me what you think I should do to mark the occasion. Uh, be sure to subscribe to words on your podcast, on your favorite podcasting app, whatever you're listening to right now. Go find the show, subscribe and a, do me a favor and leave me a, a review. Especially if you're on a iTunes, which may no longer be iTunes. I'm confused. I don't know.

Kevin Tumlinson:          39:29                I don't know where things are going. Uh, but apple find me on whatever the name of the apple platform is and leave me a review. Uh, if, uh, once that happens, I should get it on alert at some point in a, a May even read your review on air, make sure you're also, yes, slip on over two words on your and get on the word slinger mailing list, uh, which I may have to do a little cleanup on. Uh, everybody's kind of on high alert about the mailing list as since I kind of dusted it off and that's on me. Uh, that's an important reason why you should maintain a healthy mailing list with, uh, engagement rather than letting people sit for, you know, months or years with no word from you. I'm so much better with my author mailing list than I am with word slinger.

Kevin Tumlinson:          40:18                Uh, but go check that out, get on that and say hello to me. Email me from there if you'd like. And uh, we will, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll work something out there and, uh, otherwise, thank you so much for the honor, uh, of, of sitting in with me. [inaudible] it's my honor that you are sitting with me. So thank you so much for being a part of the show of, uh, this journey and God bless you and I hope you have just a fantastic week and weekend ahead and I hope your writing career takes off into the stratosphere.

Kevin Tumlinson:          40:53                We're going to have to get there.


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